Jack Hojnar: It's Not Too Late to Start Over, Just Start Right Now

Sometimes we're so caught up in here and there that we need to press pause and go, "Holy, look at the gap. Look at where I came from." Do not say, "I'm going to do something Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday." If you say, "I'm going to go on a weight loss journey," I'm using it because it's easy. I can start right now. Just start.

My therapist and I joke, the biggest thing she had to get me over was, "You might be right, but are you effective?" And so as a gift to her when she retired, I got a, "I might have been wrong, but I was damn effective." I would say it is a subtle brilliance that I've learned throughout life on how to do this very, is to take the mirror off and do it. My driving force was a simple mantra that I still use to this day: choose your heart.

It's so funny you said that, because I have been over... Do you know what's up with the water I drink at breakfast? I am really off the point. I've got tons of lip balm and stuff like that.

It is crazy dry. And I brought those beat-up sunglasses. I clearly remember how the sun never hides here. It's always up. It's a real thing.

Right, yeah, isn't it crazy? It's so weird. Beautiful though. My daughter lives in Seattle. I'm going to be there after this. Forecast is rain. If you've been to Seattle at all, I've never seen Mount Rainier ever, because it's always been cloudy and rainy there. I couldn't live like that. So anyway, you had an idea. So yeah, here's what I was thinking.

So I hate you right now. For anyone that's watching, I have two solid pages of notes you sent, and then you asked me a question I wasn't prepared for.

You know what? There wasn't one. There were several milestones. Some were traumatic. Some were real traumatic.

I'm going to really start here because it uncovered itself in therapy. When I was 10 years old, I've always been—one of the questions you guys pushed through here was, you always seem very positive and upbeat. So I've always been that way as a kid. When I was 10 years old, I had someone pick on me, shoved food in my face. I saved up, back when I was 10, to get 25 cents. It got you Hostess cupcakes, right? So I saved up money to get two. The chocolate ones with a little squirrel on top. Fucking amazing.

I saved up 50 cents. I had to do chores to get that money. We all went out with friends. I get them, and these guys I thought were cool shoved them in my face. And I remember coming home, and my dad got mad at me and said, "Why didn't you punch him back?" And I didn't know those responses back then. What's interesting is years later it came out in therapy that that was the one thing that set me off in this retribution cycle, where whenever someone did something to me, it wasn't just "I'm going to rise above it." It was "I'm going to crush you."

And so I actually ran into that kid as a senior in high school. He was a big kid when we were little, because I was a little kid. And he was now only maybe 5'7" or 5'5". And I was a senior in high school, and I had ballooned up to six feet, 200 pounds from playing football. My first instinct was to take his face and throw it into a wall.

But what came out in therapy was that moment, because when you're 10 years old, if you can indulge me for a second, my sister taught fifth grade, and that's when you transition from fourth to fifth to sixth. So she taught fifth grade, and she said that was the biggest pivot point for most kids, because you're going from being these innocent fourth—especially girls, it's horrible to them—finding yourself. And so that's when competitive sports starts to kick in, typically. You're getting ready for middle school sports, et cetera.

And so she said, "Angels, assholes"—she used to always say it, in a nice way, right? And so that's why it's so profound that I was 10 and in fifth grade when all this stuff happened. Because I thought everybody was nice. And it was my first time experiencing someone really taking advantage of me. So how about that for a starting point? Okay. Does that work?

You want more now?

It took 40 years to get there, but still. So if we do a little bit of this chronology, what it taught me was two things. I'll try to go down these parallel paths. I learned that I couldn't trust people anymore like I thought I could. The downside was that it caused a rift between me and my dad, because what it got a lot of was "Why didn't you punch him? Why didn't you fight back?"

And by the way, to be sure, as a 59-year-old man now, my dad and mom did the best they could. We know, as parents, we did the best we could. And so I look at their reaction to my life circumstances less through the lens that you do as a kid, which is the world revolves around you, as opposed to the other way around, you actually are part of the world. So anyway, I say that because it started causing me to really have a bad relationship with my father, because then it was, "Why aren't you standing up more?" And that wasn't my instinct.

I ended up getting to high school and tried out for the football team just because I wanted to participate in something. And I was tiny. Five-nine, 120 pounds, maybe five-seven, 120 pounds. And I found people picking on me again. And so all of that flashback kept coming back to that cupcake in my face.

And what was interesting, if you've gone through any kind of therapy, which I highly encourage people to do, it's not for everybody, but it worked for me, there's this therapy, I don't know what it's called, I think it's EMT or something like that, where they tap you. You guys are smarter than me, you would know what it is. It's something where you focus on, like...

No, they'll literally have a therapist tap your knees back and forth. And so that rhythmic tapping kind of clears your brain so you can focus more. And it worked for me, at least. It's not hypnosis. It just changes your focus. And what came out was this 10-year-old boy. And she kept saying, "What would you say back to him?" And it was essentially Good Will Hunting. "It's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong." But for years I carried that with me.

So now I become 13 years old. I get picked on again. Again, I want you to understand, in my soul, I'm always this happy, silly kid that believes in the best of everybody. But I'm not having any success with it. I'm not being affected, at least not the way I felt was being affected. And so between the summer of freshman and sophomore year, I put on 40 pounds of muscle, and I grew to 5'11". And suddenly, no one fucked with me. It's the best way to say it.

And then what became my persona was this evangelist for the people that didn't have advocates. Senior year, I got suspended from school because there was a senior who was picking on a freshman, wouldn't stop. And I'm not going to say his last name, but his name's Dan, and to this day, when we've been to reunions, he'll go, "I can't believe you did this." I went, "Dan, you have five seconds to knock it off or I'm throwing you in a locker." Threw him in his locker, put his padlock on, and went to class.

So what came out of therapy was it was all this 10-year-old boy. So my dad called me wimpy, found other people picking on me. And I found the only way to success was to be muscular, incredibly strong, and super aggressive. One of you asked me, how is it that I feel so comfortable speaking out? I'm going to go back to that 10-year-old boy who didn't say anything, who was shocked. It still comes out.

What I've learned as a 59-year-old is that that's not always effective. It might be right. But I remember getting suspended and coming home and still getting in trouble. And I remember saying to my mom and dad, "I'll do it all over again. That kid didn't stop. That's the only way I can get him to listen." At least I thought at the time it was the only way to get him to listen. Just helping form stories for you.

Sure. Is that the name?

Love that quote. And Kathy's going to watch this and ask me to sheath my sword, not in the way I'm thinking right now, which is inappropriately. What I've had to learn, and it took me to be probably 55 years old is when more of that clicked, was that I can be more powerful. I can still speak up, but I'll be more powerful than getting in someone's face and telling them how bad they are, right? Being that pejorative person is just not effective.

Yeah, profound stuff. It's interesting when you talk about the synapses and everything else like that. I went to a seminar where some Navy SEAL spoke. And in their conversation, they were talking about how the myelin sheath covers the neural fibers. And the more you go down that path, the more they engage that fiber so you can keep sending signals, which is why we can have what we might call bad habits. And he said we can never erase bad habits. We can only try to form new pathways and help more neural pathways get exaggerated. And that sheath is still there, but it gets worn down.

I bring that up because my instinct now from being 10 is I'm going to out-battle anybody, which in some ways helps with business because I'll be prepared more than anybody. So that's still there. The hard part was learning that that's not always effective. But it's amazing how that came out.

By the way, she kept asking questions and asking questions. And, man, we kept cycling back. Headphones on was her tapping me. Imagine this, imagine closing eyes and headphones on me, taking them off, just whipping them down on the ground saying, "I just don't believe in this historical shit. I'm responsible for myself." And she kept saying, "Put the headphones back on. We're going to go back." So I love the question. I love the start.

I was telling your dad this this morning at breakfast, that it wasn't until I was 55 years old, because, admittedly, I had a lot of success doing things in a pretty aggressive way. And so let me caveat that term success. It was my version of it. Good salary, taking care of my house, taking on new tasks, whatever I was doing, I was getting results.

I might've left a wake in my way, like a boat going through a bunch of people on a shoreline. I didn't do it well, but I was getting to my destination. Financially, I had success because sometimes that borderline arrogance, confidence would get me a gig. For example, before I met you, I had an opportunity to do work with Motorola. So I was on my own doing my own consulting. Motorola came to me because they heard I had some experience in X, Y, and Z. And so I went through a series of meetings. I was RFPing against other people in the Boston group, if you've heard of them.

Yep. I was up against them, and they're in a hallway in their suits, and I'm post-dot-com era. So I'm pretty much in my T's, as in a T-shirt, because I thought that was the thing to do at the time. I thought it was a brand.

And we get to this final meeting, and they said, "We're going to have both teams present right at the same time." And they're sitting right there, and it was me and one assistant I had with me, this woman named Nina. And they said, "We're going to have you both present at the same time." And the 10-year-old boy jumped up. I didn't say, "Hey, is there a moment we could talk offline and talk about this a little bit? I'd like to understand this a little bit better," ask questions, right? I went, "Fuck that." And they went, "Excuse me?" I'm like, "Fuck that. I'm not giving these assholes my idea."

I said, "They charge more. Their suits cost more than my fees. And you're going to buy into their Notre Dame or Princeton." I made it to the final two. "My proposals, share it with them. Don't give a shit. I'm out." That was sincere. Right now, I got the gig. It was a high-paying gig. I got it. And I look back on it now and go, there are so many different ways you could have done it. Right?

But my therapist and I joke, she had to get me over was, "You might be right, but are you effective?" And so as a gift to her, when she retired, I got a, "I might've been wrong, but I was damn effective."

It wasn't until I was 55, post-divorced, post-divorced, I wanted to salvage the relationship with my kids. Because anyone listening thinks that this was just a career thing, this carried over at home. So I had a very, very tough marriage, the details of which I will only talk about offline. But it was tough. I played a role in that. I was very aggressive in wanting my career to take off.

Verbatim, said to my wife at one point when she said, "You're not home enough"—the first year before I met you, I traveled 280 days—and when she said, "I need you home more often," my response was, this is the part I said I would own, my response was, "You see all this shit you have around you? This doesn't happen if I'm home sitting at home making dinner. So we need to understand our roles." Again, as I say it, I feel right, but damn, that's not a way to show if you're a partner.

So because of that, I wasn't always a good dad. And because of that, my career might've taken off. So I hit some end marks, but I wasn't building a network of friends. People knew that they could call me on because they needed a bulldog for a meeting. So I would go in, clean up house, make everybody do everything. They'd listen to me because half of them were terrified. To this day, people have said when I walk into meetings, they think that I'm going to beat the shit out of somebody. So I'm now divorced. And I did that.

Yeah, and, well, you know, there's parts of that that are great, because that's the fearlessness. That's also the very little kid who felt anything is possible, right? It wrecked my relationship with my kids. So now I'm 50, living by myself in this tiny apartment, went from this wonderful, beautiful house in a great neighborhood. I'm in this tiny little house. This isn't a woe-is-me, by the way. I don't want that to be felt at all, just the circumstance.

And my first objective when I met with a therapist was not to fix me, it was to fix, if I can't get this right, then life is useless. Because, ironically, if I start to cry now, it might happen. I saw how my dad worked with me, and he didn't have the skills or tools. And I vowed when I was younger, all I want to do, most people have objectives when they grow up. I want to be a doctor, lawyer, not most, some. I just want to be a dad. So what's the fucking irony? All I wanted to be was a dad. And I ended up being a piece of shit because I followed the patterns, because I had success.

I said to her, "I don't care what it takes. I need those three kids to think that I walk on water." And I know it sounds really weird to say it that way and see my problems, my challenges. So I spent thousands of dollars and 10 months just making sure that I fixed that.

If you can indulge me again for one quick story, my youngest son, I was brutal to. He ended up having an incredible baseball career. And I hope he listens to this, because I feel terrible retelling it. But I was really mean to him, because my marriage was so struggling that anytime he did something bad on the baseball field, it reminded me of all the shit my wife told me that I sucked in. My wife constantly told me, "You suck. You're not making enough money. You're not doing the right things." I'm going, "God damn it. You're a stay-at-home mom. We have a 3,000, 4,000 square foot house. We've been to Hawaii twice with the kids. I don't fucking do enough? Like, God damn." So anytime Sam would strike out, "Fucking strike out again, you're not playing baseball." Because I had no outlet. [inaudible] And I'm going to own all of it.

So I go through therapy, and Linda helps me understand all this stuff. And fast forward to Sam. Linda's a therapist. I highly recommend her. Unfortunately, she's retired. Beautiful woman, just soul of an angel, and saved me. And if she were here, she'd say I didn't do anything. That's her.

Sam is a junior in high school. Loves baseball. Early part of the season, he goes to turn a double play. He was a shortstop. As he moves the ball from his mitt hand to his throwing hand, he wrecks his nail. The ball just hits weird. His nail comes off, blood all over the place. He throws his four-hopper to the first baseman. And had he been younger, I would have yelled out, "Sam, what the fuck?" And all of a sudden I go, "Oh." Something was to happen. See, I don't know if you could feel that. It was a shift. I stopped looking at what he was bad at and went, "There's no way he would do that."

So here's where the story actually gets better. He's now miserable. His mom's out at the game. I got to take him to, what do you call those clinics?

Thank you. So I get in the car to urgent care, and I instantly became empathetic, and I went, "Okay, he's injured. The game's done now. He's probably going to be miserable. He's got school tomorrow, and he's got a history of his dad saying he sucks. Let him be angry." So he's in the car, and he goes, "You're not going to say anything, are you?" And I go, "Sam, it just sucks. I don't know what to tell you." He goes, "Why don't you tell me I threw the ball like shit?" I'm like, "Well, you had to throw it like shit because your fricking nail came off." He goes, "Oh, you care about my nail."

And the whole time, I'm telling you, inside I want to go, "Kid, shut the fuck up, I'm going through therapy." And I went, "Sam, I'm really sorry. I feel terrible. I don't know what I can do here. And I know this is probably the last person you want to be with is your dad. Probably with your mom right now, if you want it, and call her." He goes, "Oh, so you're passing the buck." I had no escape.

Side story, I just built this new house. I'm remodeling it. A bedroom's done. I order a shit ton of pictures from Costco, and they're waiting. Hospital is here, past Costco, on the way to take him to his mom's house where he's living. So my brain goes, all right, after we're done with this, I'll take him, ask him to just wait in the car, because I'm going to pick up my pictures and go to Costco.

This story detail is really important to me, because I hope anyone that listens to this hears the change that is possible in everybody. So we're at the hospital. He starts to calm down. He realizes he can't play for a while. We get in the car, and I ask him, "Hey, would it be a big deal that we stopped at Costco so that I could pick up these pictures, and I'll take you to your mom's?" Eruption. "It's always about you. It's always ever been about you."

And I go, "Hey, I get it. No big deal. You're right. Bad ask." I want you guys to feel something. Instantly, inside, it flowed away from me. It was the right thing to do. That was 54 years old. Prior to that, so you understand, I would have been like, "You ungrateful piece of shit. I spent four hours at the hospital." Right? It was all about me. And he goes, "Nothing? You're not going to be angry? Just, it's okay." And I went, "Sam, it's okay." "Because you're not angry at all?" "You know, I really am not." He goes, "I don't believe a word you're saying. Take me to Mom's. You're an asshole."

I still didn't feel anything other than, God, I really messed this kid up. Right? It took him, I was telling your dad at breakfast, this past year. So it took him 10 years of being divorced and five years, or six years, of really seeing a different dad for him to see me now. But does this answer your questions about these milestones of what it took?

So I want you to understand, we have a neighbor that just did something terrible to our house. When Kathy and I got back from a short trip, just loaded a ton of shit up against our garage, garbage, a whole bunch of other crap. And my instinct was, that's it, fuck him. I'm going to his house. I'm pouring this on top of his car that's in the alley. I'm going to literally go, that's the lesson. So that person's still inside, but I had to pace around the house a few times to then come to a place of, all right, I've got to find a way to talk to him, because maybe he doesn't understand how important this is to me, and all that kind of stuff.

So to answer your question, long-winded, it took 55 years and a more concentrated 10 solid months of therapy before I felt I can go out into the wild. David, does that answer your... Did you get a feel for that? When I say go out in the wild, meaning Linda would literally say, "I want you to try this with your kids right now. I want you to go on a date and try this." And I'd come back and report back all the things I said and did. It was a massive process, but yeah, 55 years.

You mean... Let me see if I can answer your question, but I'll throw it back to you. How did I find the determination to make that change? Is that what you're asking me?

I've always been a happy, positive kid. I was always that way. I was a talkative, fun-loving, everything's-possible kid. My driving force was a simple mantra that I still use to this day: choose your heart. It's hard to keep my mouth shut, and I get my way with Sam, or it's hard to open my mouth and hurt somebody. Choose your heart. What's the thing that's going to be better?

I was 35 pounds heavier than I am today. I was 30-something, and it was because I was playing in a band and eating like shit, and then I got pneumonia and was hospitalized. Was it easy to lose all that weight and get in shape? No. Was it easy to get fat and out of shape? No. Because everything is, choose your heart.

I think I'm lucky. I'm going to say that truthfully. I'd like to say I have some role in my life. I also feel I'm lucky because, and this I think I inherited genetically from my dad, when he was a cigarette smoker, when it came out that it causes cancer, threw it away. He stopped cold turkey. Cold turkey. Well, at least that was my perception. My mom may say, "Not really." But I never smoked again. My dad got hepatitis B, he was told he shouldn't drink anymore, stopped having alcohol on the spot. I have that. There is something innate in me.

Plus, when I went to therapy, to kind of tie back to that, I never viewed therapy as a stigma. I viewed it no different than wearing a wristband that says I have diabetes. I told people I was going to therapy. I said, "You're going to have to be patient with me. You're going to be experiencing things as I say them that may sound awkward. But because I don't know if I want my kids to love me, what other choice do I have? I'm going to be really bad."

Now this is the old me coming out. Before I met you, I started a podcast, and that podcast, blog, when blogs were just a thing. This is bad. I'm going to admit it. This is really bad, but this is old Jack. "You're fat because you want to be." And it was right. But I knew as a marketer, it's salacious or sensationalistic as hell, and it'll have an effect. And I knew I would capture people. And it got a lot of negative comments. "It's really rude. You shouldn't approach it that way. People are sensitive about their weight." And I would always respond with, "You got yourself here. You can get yourself out."

I'm going to say another story for you. Go watch Duke University Women's Basketball Coach. I'll send you that link also. She was talking to her teammates, and she was trying to get them to understand what competition is. And she said, "I can make you work as a coach. I can tell you to get on the line and run sprints. I can tell you to shoot free throws. But I can't line you up against somebody else and tell you to beat that other person. I can't make you compete."

I don't know if that 10-year-old boy who got that shit shoved in his face had... Maybe I had that competitive thing in me all along. It just manifested itself because of that. I've always just been a competitor, and I've always believed things are possible. And so shifts like that, don't get me wrong, they're not hard, but I truly live in this place of "I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out."

Where it has gotten in the way for me, David, is because I feel I can control most things. Please don't conflate what I'm saying with "I've got this under control." Because it's not. It's just life is a lot smoother. I have family members that have struggled with drug addiction, and I truly sit down with them, and not in a pejorative way, I sit across from them and go, "I don't get it." Right? And they say they see that, whatever drug it is, and they can't stop from wanting it. And I look at it and go, "Right, they have one of those."

And so what I had to learn through therapy was that my own kids are going to view my change through their own addiction, so to speak. Does that make sense? And I had to get more empathetic to how they're going to be receptive to me. I just have to keep showing up a certain way.

I'm fascinated by the brain topic, because I really do live this way. You might find this funny, and yet you won't as you're getting to know me more. I actually wrote a bunch of people prior to this and said, "I'm going on a podcast. If you were to list all the Jack-isms, annoying and not, that I've ever said to you, share them with me." Because I want to see if those things pop up.

I've got a list of them. There's 24. But anyway, one of the things I used to do, rather than say, "Here's how I view things," I want to see how do people view it, annoying and not annoying. I love it. And one of the things that I learned was that what you think is what you feel, and what you feel is what you project, and what you project is what you receive.

And vis-a-vis, I was walking down the street one day. I was feeling really confident, this woman stops me. I wish these were exaggerative stories. It was in Naperville on, what's that main drag there? You would know it better than me.

No, no, downtown Naperville, whatever.

Walking out of Washington towards Starbucks, and I'm just, I'm not really making eye contact, and I'm just walking like this, and this woman goes, "Can I stop you for a second?" She goes, "You have an energy about you." And I almost went, "Cool. I'm glad you could feel it, because I do too."

And so I sense in myself when I'm walking into meetings and I'm going, "I don't want to be here." And I've walked out of meetings where I went, "I'm not going to be effective here. I'm not going to be good or strong or powerful." I don't want to hear just me. Do you feel that? Do you experience that?

Okay, yeah, I'd love to hear this.

Vegas. I got it.

I love it. Your dad and I were talking earlier. I want to be your generation when I grow up. Not all the time. Sometimes I want to smack your generation around, but that's just being older. But your dad and I were talking at breakfast this morning. We didn't have these conversations with not only our parents, but even adults, say mentors. Maybe we had business mentors who would guide you through a sales process or a meeting or how a particular technology can be applied or critical thinking, right?

Yeah, something is wrong with you. There's still a lot of that stigma left. We just never had conversations about how I feel about certain circumstances. That's why I applaud you for being at your stage of life and your age for saying, "I'm not going to include myself with those groups."

Your dad and I, I would argue, fought through it. We even thought we might be able to change people. We know so well, "I bet I can fix that guy." Whereas you guys go, "Got options, I'm out." And I don't mean that in a caustic way. I'm just trying to be a little more black and white here than shades of gray. Purely, I just find it fascinating that you came to that. I wouldn't have thought this way.

May I ask, were some of those your dad's influences, hand-offs to you, or some of you?

The reason I bring it up is that my youngest...

I would say it is a subtle brilliance that I've learned throughout life on how to do this very, to take the mirror off and do it.

Fantastic. I just got too loud in front of the mic. I apologize.

Exactly. I say it because my youngest just recently graduated from college. And so he's been asking my advice for career stuff. And I said, "I'm going to put you in touch with a series of people over the course of a few weeks. I need you to be patient, but there are people that have achieved some level of success in life." That doesn't necessarily mean they're CEOs, et cetera, and so on, who I admire, who are very, you and I talked about this, incredibly self-aware, recognize their role in when things didn't go well, are proud of the things they did well. But I want you to hear from them because they'll be great mentors. And you can't always hear from me.

And I can't tell you how many people my son has now called back or called me about and said, "Wow, Matt is great." By the way, you're on the list. Just haven't gotten to you yet. He's on five. I've got 10 people on a list for him. And I said, "You're going to keep referring to these people." What's been interesting is each one of those mentors, so to speak, as he's going through these interview processes, he's leaning back on all this other stuff. And then he's calling me saying, "Matt said this," or "Hugh said that. How does this play out?" And I'm saying back to him, "Call him and ask him."

And I'm glad that, I want you to embrace this. We really didn't have this growing up, right? You had to find somebody that took you under their wing because for some reason you guys had something in common or they liked you. Do you agree with this?

When you said "later in life," you mean 40s, 50s?

Oh, your dad stepped into that role? Okay. I did not experience that until I was in my 40s. That's more when he started to shift over and being leading me or introducing me that way. You find it valuable, I take it. It seems like this is huge for you.

Do you feel, though, that that's ubiquitous with a lot of your friends? Like it's universal, or are you more unique that way? My feeling is you seem more unique, but maybe I'm not hanging out with you guys enough to know.

That's your circle.

It's a nice flex, by the way. It's pretty impressive. What flex? You're flexing about, you've actually read C.S. Lewis and you know...

Total flex.

I'm very impressed, is what I'm getting at. The only author I know is, what was the, Jack Kocher? Mike Royko from the Tribune days. Yeah, go ahead.

One of the biggest challenges I've had recently, and I'm curious to know if you feel the same way, is ageism, obsolete feeling. I don't know if you feel that way at all in what you do.

No, the ageism, or you're being obsolete. Do you feel that at all?

I have been teaching my kids how to use it. My daughter was describing to me a project thing that she was putting together. And I went, this is really duplicitous, but if she's watching, she didn't know I did this. So I was recording the conversation. I threw it into the AI bot and I said, "I just sent you something." And it was her entire program laid out in a schedule spreadsheet.

No, you know what I'm asking more. I don't think I asked it correctly. Is it emotionally? Do you feel emotionally like you're on the back nine? I talk about that often.

Well, I mean, those very people, I mean, some of them, I think I know maybe a couple of those names you're thinking of, but I bet they have an immense amount of... They could at least mentor someone.

I love that. Wow.

Is that what you did when you were a kid, then, too? Did you do that?

Oh, is it really? Wait, that's part of the game? Okay, we're going to do a whole other cast on that. Go ahead.

I love it. You said something really interesting, and I want to pull up my notes for a second. Again, in preparation for this, I sent your questions to a bunch of people.

All this stuff? Look at that. Is that not amazing? Just a few.

Exactly. It's good we're on question one, by the way.

Well, it's interesting you just said that, because I think this ties into what I'm about to say. We can talk business till we're blue in the face. I want you guys to know that the podcast that I've watched now twice is the one where you guys talk about the modern era of websites. One of the more recent ones was like two ago, maybe. Whatever it was. I watched it, and I watched it again, because admittedly I was looking. I saw the headline and went, "All right, I've got some meetings coming up. I want to make sure I'm on top of all this stuff too." So it was a very...

I used it and it worked. So you better tell me what the new thing is, but that's to your point about staying fresh. And so I'm going, all right, this is very tactical. It's not relational. It's very transactional, but I need to get this out from your stuff.

So anyway, in preparation for this meeting, I wrote some mentors and said, "I'm going to be asked to be on this podcast. They have 2 million viewers seen worldwide." Well, this is yours. I'm presuming it. I'm just helping you out. You can subscribe. What's the subscribe thing?

Perfect. So I said, "These are the things they're going to be asking me. I want to know where you feel they may be missing some things about me, where I should interject some stuff." And this friend of mine, Peg, who I love, goes, "Oh my God, great." By the way, I showed her my notes too. And she said one of those, "Of course you did."

And then she said this, which ties to the curiosity thing and getting older. She says, "I need you to make sure that they understand that you are more than any of your accomplishments, that you have spent a lifetime wanting to learn how to give, to learn, and by human curiosity and the human experience." And she said, "If that doesn't come across, I'll be really upset with you."

And so the fact that you just said, and the reason I asked the question is because we're at that age. I've got a few friends that were very successful in retiring.

I am totally excluding you at this point. Go play with your friends. All right, I'll go over you. So it's, at least in my opinion, it can be challenging to be sitting here and watching a few people really cashed in well, who now are going and just hanging out in Costa Rica. And while Kathy and I could certainly slow our lives down, I had a very, very good friend, really close friend who's skiing here right now, who said, "Why can't you and Kathy just retire in two years? We'll get a house in Colorado together." I went, "What are we going to do?" "Ski in the morning, mountain bike in the afternoon." I said, "Then what?" And he goes, "Well, we'll chill out. Maybe we'll play ping pong, pickleball." And I went, "After all these years of knowing me, I don't think you get it. That sounds like death to me."

So that's why I was curious how you felt about all these things. So it's good to know that. Curiosity is a big driver for you.

I don't think you, have you told, can you tell that story? I know it's about me, but it's a good story. I'll give some here. I'll talk about me to give context, because David's giving a look like, "This guy."

That's a big part of it. Your dad and I share a lot of commonalities, but there's one thing we don't share, which is going to probably surprise you and maybe you a little bit. I am not good with people. Okay? Meaning not that I'm mean or bad. I walk into a room of networking, I instantly get anxious. Now I have spoken with those cute little clear headsets to a thousand people at a time at different conferences. My band has played at big events. I am not afraid of being in front of people. When asked to go into a room and, "Hey, can you make some connections?" I truly go, "Can I just sit in the back room? I can't do this."

I say that because I'm fascinated by people who at least seemingly are more confident or comfortable. And your dad told this amazing story that I'll add even more context to. In October. He's really, you know, hamming you up right now.

If this is about hard knocks and anyone that's listening, I feel they should hear these stories. And if you glean something from it, meaning here's a guy that's confident walking into a room to meet people, and here's one that's not, how they intersect, that's learning.

Thank you. So indulge me. I say it often. In October, I got to a point where I said, "I'm going to explore career options. I've done everything I can at my current job. I've exhausted every possible extent." And if they see this and watch this, doesn't bother me if they go, "Wait a minute, you're looking?" Because I'm in full-on exploration mode, and I am not done yet. You probably feel very similarly, right?

So explore means pursue a ton of things, starting my own thing again, meeting with other people. So what does that mean? I got to jump into something really uncomfortable. I've got to build my own neural networks. I've got to plant the seed, and those roots have to take hold. So in October, I said to Kathy, we're at an event. I met someone and I went, "I'm starting today." And by the way, quick advice for anyone watching this: do not say, "I'm going to do something Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday." If you say, "I'm going to go on a weight loss journey," I'm using it because it's easy. Just start.

So we're at this event. I lean over to Kathy and I went, "Universe, put me here. I'm networking today." And she goes, "What?" I went, "Starting today." I said, "All right," I went like this, I put my head up, and I went, "All right, 10 to 14 months." And she goes, "What are you doing?" And I went, "10 to 14 months, I'm going to have a huge network from 10 to 14 months right now. Patience, persistence, consistency. It's all I've got to keep telling myself. Be patient, be persistent, and be consistent." I'm saying this out loud to her, and she's like, "I can't hear the conference." Right? I wrote this thing and I went, "I'm going to talk to everybody about this." Okay? Or in my head.

And so that moment, I met this guy and started talking to him, and he was a speaker, and I figured, "I don't know how to do this, but I'm just going to be myself." Him and I started talking. That was October. Yesterday I went to the Rotary Club. He invited me to it because we've now become close. And I met the mayor of Milwaukee and the former mayor of Milwaukee. And the mayor of... To me, "I'd love to hear more about your ideas," because I said to the mayor, "I hear about how Wisconsin has become this big tech hub. What do you need from me? What tech is missing? Because I know a lot of people, maybe they could develop some stuff." And I even said, "I've got some cool ideas from people I know out in Colorado." He wants me to meet with him.

The reason I tell you that is I have now set up two or three meetings a week. I keep getting invited to things. And every single time, John, especially John, I want you to know that when you told me the story you're about to tell in the car, I started getting anxiety as you told it. Because I couldn't be in a line at an airport. I travel a lot and strike up a conversation. People have talked to me and I put my earbuds in, even if I'm not listening to anything. And do one of those butts-in.

And so what I've learned is that in order for me to be successful, if I want to hit these goals, choose your heart. I cannot meet anybody where I can step into something that's uncomfortable, and it's now uncovered all these things. So my question to you then is, has it always been easy for you to do that? Do you find that comfortable? And if you could tell everyone the story, because it's such a contrast between me. Does that make sense?

Can I raise my hand here? See right there. What made you do that? That's what I want to uncover, because even if I heard a cool conversation or something, what made you want to do that? I'm really, what is it?

Believe it or not, that's how I grew my business.

It's fascinating to me because it's truly a 180 from anything that I would even think is possible. And so again, what's so interesting when you told that story is just for me, how I had to keep reminding myself that the possibilities for my life will resemble what you experience if I lean into something that might be a little uncomfortable and...

Because they could have shut you off, like I could have. Katie could have said, "There's this creepy guy standing next to me." Right? But the bigger message is you don't know, though, until you step into it. And if you step into it, it doesn't work, okay, move on. Right? I think I spent a lifetime going, "It's not going to work. I'm going to get shut down. What's the point?" And all those kinds of self-deflating thought processes or thoughts.

Very sensitive. So I'm, I'm...

I do. I really want to, this is your guys' baby. So I don't want to.

And look what you had from it, just because of a conversation about a spa.

All from a spa conversation. Look at the memory you created.

You're making me think of something. I've got a very close relative who used to be a partner at Accenture, and long since retired, very, very successful, wonderful human being. Some career and even some of the marriage challenges, probably 15 years ago, we sat down, and he had me take all these extensive tests, almost kind of like what you would take with CliftonStrengths and StrengthsFinder, all kinds of things. It was stuff that, he's a very confident man. If Mario, if you watch this, you know I'm talking bad about you right now. Super confident. He gave me this huge test, and I went, "Oh, you just stole half this shit from Myers-Briggs or whatever." And he kept saying, "It's my stuff."

But anyway, where I'm going with this is it was to narrow down the three things that are most important to you. But you had to exclude, like, family and kids and all that kind of stuff. And so it was more designed for how you like, what are important things to live your life. And then that can transcend into career opportunities. And so I'll give you my answers, and I'm curious to know what your top three would be. Because I'm seeing some trends here. I'm going to tie this to Hard Knocks.

I've lived by this stuff ever since he told me, pay attention to these things. Mine are these three things I need to have in life for me all the time. And they are in reverse order. So it's money. And to be sure, money isn't for possession or to buy things. It's to be able to create experience and to generate and to give and all that kind of stuff. You and I talked about it. I don't need a ton of stuff. And if we were to weigh it, those two are the bigger ones. I need to be in a life that's creative and that's building. And those two are distinct.

Creativity means, how can I solve a problem? And building, I'd rather be able to come in and say, "Okay, I've got nothing here. How do I put this together?" And those kind of go hand in hand. And at that point, it drove me. I went, "Oh, so that's why my career looked this way. And that's why my relationships look that way. That's why I like playing the guitar, houses, right?" I'm curious, what would you say are your three that you could say are your core, and it could be just right now too, but what would you say are your core drivers?

It feels odd, doesn't it? Doesn't it feel narrow to say money?

Got it. Well, so money and curiosity.

That's awesome. What comes to mind for you?

Are you serious? Is that a question?

To be sure, when people ask us why we started our podcast, like what we intend to get out of it, how many listeners, what do we need to make, I said, well, first of all, that's my phone or one of yours. I'm going to ignore it. Can you hear that, maybe? That's all

So you know what we did on one of our podcasts? "Alexa, answer the phone." We did that on one of our podcasts. We kept saying it over and over again. I was laughing. I hope I'm just messing with everybody right now.

Oh, yeah. Where were we going with this? I just forgot what I was going to ask you now. Thanks for the Alexa thing.

Oh, yeah. You want to be able to tell stories or experience them or both?

Right. I remember now. We were talking about podcasts and what the end game is. And as I've gotten older, I came to this place of, I am not going to be attached to any outcomes. When someone says things like, well, for example, when you and I were talking, I was asking about the cameras, not from a debits and credits perspective, how much those cameras cost you, but more: do you like that connection? Does that camera work well?

When we started the podcast, Kathy just said, "We talk so much about our relationship at this stage in life, we should record it." Well, I was in a band for years, so I had all this gear, and I went, well, all right. I had an SM58, which—

Yeah. So I just had the gear, so I plugged it in. The next day she comes to my apartment and goes, "What the hell is this?" I went, "Our podcast."

And when people have asked us what's the end game, I'll tell you what we say, and you can all have your own story. Ours is that it is a real-time memoir. So my true end game is that my grandchildren can go, "That's what great-grandpa was like one day." And if from that, a byproduct is someone that's in a relationship challenge, whatever, feels hopeless, maybe we represent some sort of aspiration.

I feel if you start attaching... I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I feel the business— maybe I'm wrong about what you guys should be doing. Am I wrong in that? You guys have other businesses. You—

It's all that's going to be there. "Sign up now to learn more about this website."

It's interesting because I feel you guys would agree with me on this, that Kathy and I— our venture started out with the conversation: let's just have a dialogue. And then it went to, we really like doing this. And then it went to, holy cow, people are paying attention to it. And then we got people writing us saying they loved it. And I actually felt responsible. Does that make any sense at all?

Yeah, we've had some criticism that came up too, which the ten-year-old boy came back as. Someone wrote something really incendiary, and I stared at it and I went, this piece of shit does not know that I work in this internet world. I will find their fucking house. They were so bad that I went, I know in a couple of keystrokes I'm going to be able to write them a letter to their office and freak them out. And then my brain went, okay, Jack.

Where I'm going with this is, once we started to see that there was some sort of interesting momentum, that was when I said, I'm going to reach out to a couple of people that I feel are aligned with us, because we actually talk about their stuff and use their things and do their stuff, and see if there's at the very least some sort of affiliate or combined program.

So my question for you guys then is, I love what you're doing. I've listened to as many podcasts as I could. And I have to admit, I kept coming back to the tactics, mostly because that [inaudible] coming up, so it was very truly transactional.

Right. It was actually really fascinating to go down that path, but I love the interpersonal stories too. I felt intimidated by the woman who created the tagline. She did some— was it like, oh God, I listened to that one, I'm not going on your show now, I don't have anything to—

So my question is, there's going to come a— if you continue to do this, if you know marketing as well as anybody, it's a momentum game, right? And out of sight, out of mind, unless you're playing the scarcity game, but then you better have something really valuable, right? You know what I mean by that?

Right. Okay. So if you guys even thought about that pivot point, that intersection and all, have you started processing what this could be going right now and you're kind of letting it flow?

You are so bashful.

A lot of things, yeah.

That's over lunch. Sure. I can't wait to get that one. I'm going to get blown away by both of your intellects.

Correct. I wrote this down. You can see it. So it's what I've been saying this whole time, and it's funny because I say it all the time. I wrote that down and keep it in my wallet all the time. It ties to exactly what you're talking about: patience, persistence, and consistency. Just trust it. Because to your point, you can only do what you do during the day. And if you keep doing good work, you hope something's going to become— where you get to make, to your dad's point, way back to the beginning, that synapse is going to fire to a pivot point.

Do you agree that it's more not getting attached to the outcome per se, meaning, I'm going to go on this date and, God, I hope I can marry this woman? I know I gave an exaggerated example.

Two questions for you then. One is, how do you feel about the term "mind the gap"? That's one of the things I used to say all the time. Meaning, sometimes we're so caught up in here and there that we need to press pause and go, holy shit, look at the gap. Look at where I came from. So I'm curious about your point of view on that.

That's the first one. And then here's a— we're going to go way deep into the pool. The three of us are largely entrepreneurs. I've spent most of my career working at startups. Stint at a big company, which I thought I would. Clearly we could talk about this forever. So we share something very in common that I think is important for this discussion, and that is stupidity. We're dumb. We are more comfortable with the unknown.

I feel that when I talk to people who work at big companies— case in point, I was networking with someone yesterday about the growth of tech in Wisconsin, Milwaukee, because more funds are coming there. Just know that there's more attention going there because it's basically more inexpensive to live than other places. And so they're doing what they can to attract talent. So I was talking to this guy, and he said, the challenge we have is that we have huge corporations here. There's Northwestern Mutual. There's Baird. Epic is a really big tech company, but that's in Madison. And so the challenge they're having.

Allen—

Correct. Yeah. So the challenge is that there's really talented people there, but they can't see— truly, you said these words— a future by going to a startup, because that becomes so uncertain. The three of us, I think, look at that and go, oh, sign me up. So here's my question relative to how do you— because we, I think, intrinsically feel this way. I'm a big fan of manifestation, which is, I know it's going to work out. I'm not sure of the direction.

Vis-à-vis this example, the day I met Kathy, I didn't think I was going to marry her. Never visualized myself living in Wisconsin, married, when I first met her. But I did know that I wanted to go home, and the universe said to me, go out tonight, just go out and see what happens. And so I leaned in and went, for some reason this woman wants to go on a date. It coincides with the time that I'm really close, I'm going to leave, and everything unfolded. I believed in my soul I was going to find someone that matched what I needed, just not know what they looked like.

So my question then, so you've got both questions now: how do you bridge that gap between not getting too caught up with what the future looks like and yet manifesting it? Does that make sense? It's really deep into the pool shit, but I think it applies to startups and leaving a big company to go to a small one. There's business applications there too. No, yeah, why don't you take that. You can take both.

That's great. That's really cool.

We have to turn it back. Yeah, you're doing a good job with that. I love a book by Simon Sinek called Start With Why. I don't know the book. I love his follow-up book to it as well.

Yeah. I think it's summed up in a page, but the book was a good read. Like anything, I truly believe in a why. And so for me, if I have a why, if I know that I want my life to look that way, I focus less on how I'm going to do it. And let me give you a quick example that I shared with my daughter. And I truly want to hear your input too on this, but I recognize I'm the guest.

—second. You're just going to be a little snippet. It's going to be a 30-minute interview because you guys are talking all the time. I love this dialogue. I really, truly believe all of the things we're talking about apply to how you live your life, and that applies to how you earn a living, how you interact with other people. It took me a long time to learn this shit. I survived without a lot of this insight.

My daughter was contemplating— she went to the University of Oregon, loved it. Her now-husband and her were contemplating going back there. She graduated, moved to Chicago, hated it. It's a different lifestyle. They're outdoors people, campers, hikers, et cetera, and she was struggling living here. And so we sat down and I went, do me a favor. I said, why do you want to go back? Tell me why you want to go back to Oregon. And so she described a couple of things. She goes, "Dad, you don't get it." I got one of these, you don't get it, which I get. She goes, "How am I going to make it work? You can't just pick up and go."

And I went, all right, well, do me a favor. I said, I truly am going to beg you to do this exercise for me. And I don't know if you share this experience with your kids, but you have at least one kid that wants to listen to you. The rest of them go, oh, here Dad goes again. Alex is my one kid that goes, "Feed me." So I said, on a sheet of paper, and you're training into the city today, I want you to write down all the bad things that [inaudible] to Oregon. But I really want it to be bad. Like Sam cheats on you, you get an STD, the house catches on fire, oh my God. I said, I want you to just imagine the worst. Oregon sinks into the ocean, right? Everything. She goes, "I'm going to write it down." Just do me that favor, and then send me a picture when you get to work.

So she sends the picture, and then I got the, well, now what? I went, just enjoy your day. And she's, what are you going to do with it? I pulled some bullshit, probably, I'm going to run it into my AI machine or some crap, I said, because I knew she'd fall for it, because she thinks I'm a tech head. I said, now call me on the drive home, and I want you to write down all the good things that can happen. But I really mean all the good things. You win the lottery, you do this other kind of stuff. Right on the other side of the paper. You know where this is going, clearly.

She kind of got it. We sat down and she goes, "You're telling me those are all the possibilities?" And then I said, you don't need to know how it's going to happen. You just need to know that it can. And when you go out there, if you believe that you're there for a reason and you know your why you're going there, a job will show up. An apartment will show up. You'll make great friends. Fast forward, her officiant was a woman that she met because she went back and took a job. She became her best friend. They lived there for four years. Their life blossomed.

And so to answer your question, for me, if you know that why, I still plan as a person, clearly. Plan for this meeting. I had no idea how it was going to go, but I want to have at least a knowledge of this stuff. And so for me it's the why. What is my reason? And I'll figure out the rest of it and I'll get there. But I still have the vision of, I'm going to be this. In October I said, I'm going to have a network of people. Not sure how that's going to happen, but I know I want to have a network of people, so I'm going to make it happen. What's yours? Curiously, you didn't want to answer, did you? Or you do?

Oh, goddammit.

Which one was he?

Oh, yeah. See, again.

Okay. Oh, what's your hardball? Goddamn, I thought those were all hard. What's the hardball question?

It's so funny. I want to show you my notes. I have pages and pages of notes on every question, and then one line on that one.

It is, admittedly, that when I saw the question, I actually contemplated telling you, I don't want to answer it. However, I thought about it on the plane. I really did. I thought a lot about it. And mental illness runs on my mom's side of the family. Some people are not with us anymore because of it. Depression. All that. I made the choice. We talked a little bit about it. My brain is going to a place, John, where you and I already talked about the story, so I feel like I'm repeating it, but I realize that not everyone's heard it.

So I'm trying to be succinct and profound at the same time, and comfortable.

I was 49, 50 years old. I had a beautiful house that I didn't have anymore. I had three kids that, they'll tell me that they love me, but I felt I didn't have a relationship with them. Most of my friends sided with my ex. I understand it now, but I didn't have my family support, and let me describe that dialectic. They were concerned that the divorce would cause— like my parents, for example, were worried that it would cause them not to see their grandchildren anymore. Other family members were worried about, now where do I fit in with all this, because we kind of like your ex for some things, right?

And I can speak to this with other people I know who have gone through divorce. When you're in that situation, you're looking for people to say, you're okay, you're making the right decision. And I found myself having very few. And I had no friends that were divorced, male or female. I had an uncle that was divorced, but it was massively contentious, right? The "fuck you, I'm taking your money." And he was somewhat helpful, but not the best piece of advice, because I got a lot of "fuck her and fuck other women" advice from him, which went, that's not going to land. I can't describe it any other way than I was absolutely isolated.

And now I'm living in Naperville, you know, 15 miles from where I raised my family. And speaking about the future, it was zero. There was none. There was literally no future. I could see none of it. I went from, again, balder guy, again, decent living, decent amount of money, but my brain went to— we can laugh a little bit— all right, I don't have a 17-inch piece of junk that's going to please every woman. I don't drive a fancy car. I don't have $20 billion in the bank. Well, I'm not going anywhere, right?

And on top of it, Christmas is rolling around, and the kids aren't coming over to the house, and I'm seeing pictures online. This is Christmas time. I look back at it with some humor. There were pictures online, Instagram stuff, with everyone at my house. My house. At that point, my emotion was, I fucking built that house. Like, I did every remodel. The living room with a big Christmas tree, and you're not there, and it didn't seem like they even gave a shit. And when I asked the kids to come by— and I don't want my kids to watch this and feel responsible— "I get it, yeah, sure, we'll be there," but I could feel that they were there and couldn't wait to get out. And all these parties are taking place back home.

Side story that's kind of funny is, I had a Mini Cooper convertible. This thing rocked. It was a fancy two-seat fast car. And I realized I bought all these gifts for my nieces and nephews and kids, because Christmas Day or Christmas Eve is when I saw the pictures— that's when we used to have it, Christmas Day. I had to bring all these gifts to my nieces and nephews and family, and I realized the car couldn't hold it, because I bought my niece, like, this big chair, someone else a big teddy bear. And so I ended up putting it all into a massive sheet. I tried to live life in a way, saying, all right, you've got to be happy somehow, turn this around. So I went out and got a Santa Claus suit, because I realized I couldn't fit it when I was starting to wrap everything. I looked at the car out the window with one of those, how is this going to fit?

So I put it into a sheet, tied it with a ribbon, put on a Santa Claus suit, and I drove with the top down with the bag just sitting there next to me. So people were honking at me. So I tried. But then I got home, and the kids stayed for a little bit of time, but then I came home and drove by myself. And I remember just bawling in my living room, going, you made this choice. Like, how could you do this? And how could this be my life? And a lot of woe-is-me shit.

And, you know, on paper I had everything, right? I had my health, I had a good job. But I felt the end was there. Like, I didn't feel I had a friend to save my life. And I don't want anyone listening to feel bad about it. I think they just were living their lives, you know? I mean, it's Christmas time, they're with their families. I can't expect them to be going, where's Jack? And one of my best friends, John Horton, was like an angel to me, him and his wife, Susan, because they truly took me in and constantly said, come over. And I felt awkward being at their—

So as we near New Year's, I'm not getting invited to one New Year's celebration. And it is true, the height of the holidays just exacerbates everything. When you think about it, who gives a fuck, right? There's tons of people that don't celebrate any of that.

Yeah, everything had changed, and it would never be the same. I'm very comfortable with owning my role in the divorce. And now I felt responsible for upending everyone's life. And then I also felt like, God, everyone's taken out of me, but just enjoying what they have.

And so we're nearing Christmas Eve— or New Year's Eve, rather, sorry. We're nearing New Year's Eve. And I took a walk along the riverwalk. If you've been in Naperville, you know there's a riverwalk. And where I was located was at the west end of it. And I took this long walk, and there was a bridge there, and I had a bunch of rope. I hope you're okay with the details. I'm very comfortable now telling you. There was a bunch of rope. I went out late, like the 28th, 29th, and I measured it.

I used to do rock climbing, so I went, this shit can handle 200 pounds, because I've gone to— what's the Western Illinois? There's rock climbing out there. I'm drawing a blank on it now. It's my age. Oh, Starved Rock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I used to do regular climbing at Starved Rock with people where we did rappelling, all that. So I knew the rope could handle my weight. Double it up. Looked online how to build a noose and went, all right, I've got to snap it and do it fast. So I measured it, dropped it, let it drop down. No one was around. It's late at night, and I'm thinking if anyone does show up, I'm going to be fucked. But I was going to do it early in the morning.

Mapped everything out, sat home and typed up letters for everybody, because I truly felt I'd let everybody down. I honest to God felt I have lived the worst life. These kids are never going to recover from this. I don't see a point in my life right now. I'm not making any contributions. I truly have nothing to live for. And so I did a couple of dry runs, set everything out, got all of my keys in order, all my— I mean, truly— passwords, everything, and laid it all out.

And here's the weirdest thing to tell you, and I don't want anyone to feel concerned that I'm not being emotional now, because it doesn't resonate. It doesn't generate for me now. At the time, I couldn't have been more calm. There wasn't crying. There wasn't this feeling. There was just, okay, this is the right thing to do. You're on a mission. So this is okay. Just make it easy for people.

And then I sent an email, scheduled, to Linda that said, this is the worst email you're going to receive, but I don't want anyone to find me except you, or at least for you to call the authorities. I don't want my kids to have to find it, but I want to let you know. And, you know, an email, you can time the message to deliver on a certain date. So it'd be the day later, right? If you don't mind calling the Naperville police. And then I'd like you to know that all these— I trust you so much to handle the sequence, right? And then it just felt calming. And so I was going to do New Year's Eve. So this is probably the 29th or 30th where I had organized it. I'd game-planned it.

And I kept trying to say, all right, if something tells me— let me tell you a quick story, because of course there's nothing slow with me or quick with me ever. I went to Loyola, and we were required to take nine hours of theology, so three classes, as part of graduating. And so I studied the classics, and then also studied with this one professor that was hard to get in his class, but he was beautiful. It was all about love and relationships. And he told this story, whether it's true or not, it was his parable about how a young man was walking from one part of New York to the next, and he got to the Brooklyn Bridge. If just one person said hello to him, he wasn't going to kill himself. And so it ends with him getting to the edge of the Brooklyn Bridge, but we don't hear what happened, but all the way, no one says hello. And so the story was, you never know what someone's going through. So sometimes just a hello on a street may change someone's path.

So I told myself— if you guys know Naperville, where I was living was by Mason Sabica. I am a block away from that bridge. I went, okay, Merry Christmas or a [inaudible] or something. I'm going to walk all the way to Washington, up this way by that pool and back. If someone says something to me, that's someone telling me, I want you to stay here. Believe it or not, I was all ready for that. And so I packed up my bag and also that kind of stuff.

And out of nowhere, I turn on the TV. For some reason, I want to watch TV, and Chip and Joanna Gaines come on, and it's their year-end episode, and they're taking listener questions. And he's a goofball, right? And every time I watched his show, I felt that was me, and I'm now going to get emotional. I was like, how did he get that? How did he get someone that sees him, right? And in there, Joanna gets a question, and the question says simply this: Does Chip get annoying with all of his antics? How do you handle it? Because you seem to laugh. Are those laughs real?

And she starts laughing, and she said, I don't know what I would do without him. He cracks me up all the time. And I said— this is when I paused and I went, there's got to be someone that can see me. I have to believe there's someone that's going to see me. And I said, someone told me to turn on the TV. Whatever you believe in told me to turn on the TV and watch that particular moment, where that was the very last question. And I went, someone's going to see me one day. Someone's going to see me.

And then my phone rings and it's my sister. And she goes, okay, you keep saying you don't want to do anything, because my sister was having friends over at her place in Lake Delavan, but they were all couples and they all had little kids. My sister is seven years younger than me. Her oldest is essentially as old as my youngest. So there's just a big generation, and I felt really uncomfortable living around a bunch of 10 and 11 and 12 year olds. So she calls, the show happens, and then I sat back and went, okay, maybe we shouldn't be doing this, because someone out there is going to see me. That's all I wanted, was to be seen. Because this is the deepest I'll go about my marriage: I never felt seen. I never really felt that she got me.

In my notes, I wanted to remind you that my sister said exact words, because here's how it ties to what you asked. My sister used to say to my ex-wife, you never understood what it was like to be married to my brother. He is someone that gets in the car, doesn't know where he's going, but trusts that the ride is going to be a blast. And you always needed to know where he was going. My brother's the type that goes, what's over there? Let's go try that out. And you never understood that about my brother. I felt at that moment, when I watched that Joanna and Chip exchange, that there's got to be someone that wants to go on this ride with me in life, no matter who it is. It doesn't have to be a partner as much as just somebody to see me.

The phone rings. It's my sister. And she goes, I know you don't want to be here. I know you're miserable right now, but just please be with me, because I don't want you to be alone. And I'm really worried about you, because I can sense something. And I went, I'm on— I'm getting in the car right now. And I swear to God, now here's what's really funny, I'm in a Mini Cooper in December driving to Delavan, and I'm going, I'm going to get in a fucking car accident. I've just come to this epiphany that I belong here, and a semi is going to roll over me or the car is going to wipe out. So I'm basically taking every side street, going 25 miles an hour with hazards on.

And then I got to her house, and no one knew. And I'm sure there are some people that might watch this now and have no clue. I came home, tore it up, and I never really spoke about it again. Linda knew about it, my therapist for sure, Kathy knows about it. I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't know about it. But that's what happened to me. And it was just this— something told me to turn on that TV. I'm convinced. I don't know why. I was truly as calm as anything. I even went out and got Depends, because I know that when something like that happens, the body just releases all the internal fluids, and I went, I don't want to make a mess. So I would. But it was so calm.

And then something told me, well, just sit down, turn on the TV for a second, and then go out there. I think it was maybe a clock thing. Like, I want to make sure it was dark enough. Or late enough. And then I watched that show. And yeah. So there's your story.

Yeah. And believe me, there were moments when it happened again where I went, I don't belong here. I do feel strong that there's some genetic stuff that just swirls in our family history. But I will tell you, it did rear its ugly head about three years ago. And so I had to be— you want to hear this story? Want me to go even deeper for you?

So it's all about despondency, and I'm going to keep coming back to what you asked. It wasn't until I was 55 years old that a lot of enlightenment came to me. So I had that happen early in my divorce, carved my way out of it, figured out the therapy piece, had that moment, went, okay, there's a reason you're here, work through it all. And then finally got to a place where I could start dating again, had some great relationships and experiences, and then met someone. And I'd never met someone like this. Thought it was the end-all. We were together. I was telling your dad this earlier, so I want to bridge this. And then pretty much out of nowhere, she goes, "I'm out. I can't do it."

Then I remember going back to my therapist going, what the fuck? I did everything right. Like, I've been calm, Jack. The ten-year-old boy doesn't show up. And she said to me, "Yep." And I went, what are you talking about, yep? This is fucking bullshit. And I went, this can't be happening again, right? I'm doing all the right things, like, what the—

And admittedly got massively depressed again, and that's when I told your dad this. I went on this huge sojourn. I'm like, fuck that, I'm out, I'm getting out, I'm clearing my head. And it wasn't— it was more, I have got to sort out this life, and you can call it whatever you want. And I told your dad this, and I'm going to say it now again. And I don't really know. This is where the ten-year-old is coming out. I don't give a shit what anyone thinks about it. I know what it meant for me.

There were two camps in my life. I literally sold everything. I built this beautiful house that I remodeled, sold everything. If it didn't fit in my SUV, it wasn't coming with me. Took a long trip to Arizona, four or five days to get there. Mountain biked along the way and said, I've got to find out who I am. Job, worked my ass off at it, did a massive installation for a huge project. So I didn't stop being functional, right? But it was more, what is going on with my life? Something's not clicking. Live in Arizona for a stretch, come home at Christmas time, and then I'm scheduled to move back out to Colorado.

And where I'm going with this is two camps: he's lost his mind, or good for you. In my mind, good for me. I needed to clear out the clutter. And for anyone that said you've lost your mind, to this day I'm a little grudgy. To this day, it's about the part of me that goes, F off. You don't get it. And until you've been there, don't talk to me about what it's like to be on that edge. But this is where the evolution came into place.

But during that time, when I left Arizona and came back to Chicago, the ex called me up and said, I missed you. And I went into that dungeon again, because I figured, oh my God, she's seen the light. And then three days later: I can't do this. Via text. And I went, you're a loser. So I didn't blame her anymore. I blamed me. I went, you're a fucking loser. You're a sap. You're never going to get out of this. And I get really sick with COVID. Didn't know I had it. But I called Linda up and I said, I need help big time. I need to be around other men that are going through this, because I can't— they don't get it. And I don't know any men who are experiencing these things. She says, go to this hospital in Aurora. It's really good for this. They have therapy sessions and group sessions. So I get in there. And you didn't hear this story. Aurora,

Back in Chicago. Chicago—

It's a little window. Missed New Year's Eve, by the way. So it's a New Year's Eve thing all over again. And so I go to this Aurora, Illinois hospital. I sit down with this therapist and I said, my therapist said to come here. There's a group session. Just want to meet with other men, blah, blah, blah. And they started asking very stereotypical questions. Have you ever thought about killing yourself? Of course I have. Have you ever processed it? Well, sure. I did it like this. Now my intellectual brain is just going, I'm just sharing. You're just getting data so you can assess me.

Do you know, when you say, at least in Illinois, if you tell someone, have you thought about how you're going to do it? You're instantly arrested. Whoa. So at that moment she goes, can you hold on a second, I'll just get some stuff. Two paramedics come in and four police officers, and I went, what is going on? And I'm thinking, did I hurt somebody? Did I miss something? And they said, sorry, so once you talk about how you would do it. And I went, wait a minute, you asked if I ever considered the ways to do it, and I had said to her, well, I thought about using a gun, but that's really messy, I don't want to do it, and plus I don't like guns, and I don't want to do it. But you see how I'm answering you? I'm answering intellectually.

Correct. Great answer. And so the cops come there, and I went, all right, I want to talk to my lawyer or I want to talk to my therapist, but this ain't happening. No, we have to put you in the hospital. You have to come in with us. And you have COVID, because they tested everybody. And so I went, this isn't going to happen. And the police come by and they start to put their arms around me. And I went, guys, this isn't Mission: Impossible. I'm not going to break out of here, run through the snow and hide for the next six months and get retribution. Can we breathe? Instantly, bam, right around the wrist. They go out and take you with you, and they lock me to the gurney.

I go in the hospital. They want to put an IV in me to calm me down. Not kidding any of this. I said, take my heart rate right now. I'm a former EMT. If I was this worked up, I'd be at 120 beats per minute right now. I'm at 70. I said, you got me on the meter. I do not need any drugs. So they now— I'm going, ready for this? I'm going, Linda, what the fuck? Because I'm blaming people. I just want to be with guys. I was there for eight days in a hospital. The only thing that saved me, I will say this is— this is one part of the story. [inaudible] watch or they're going to come after me.

But this is where my intellect took over, and I went, all right, you have got to be on your game now, dude. You can't talk about life lessons. Jack, the 10-year-old cannot show up, because all it's going to do is— it's just going to be kindling for them. You have to sit there and go, you guys are brilliant doctors. Oh my God, you've helped me so much. Even though in my mind: knuckleheads.

So I get taken to the hospital. Everything's taken away from me. I'm put in a cell. And by the way, if there's anything our health services organization should do, it's not exacerbate problems. I get it, I might've been a unique case study, but they put me in this cell that was the size of what you would see in a prison cell. I had a window that was 12 by 12. It's winter, it's cold, it's dreary, it's not like this. There was a toilet in the room, and then right behind the toilet was a curtain with a shower. And so it sounds like—

100%. So I realize if I tell them, you know, you guys are getting this wrong, it's a check mark. He's an irascible figure. We can't control him. He's a danger. So I don't know what I got in me, but I went, leverage COVID. So what happened was, because I had COVID, I was supposed to be in a ward with everybody else, but they had a special ward for COVID, because back then no one clearly knew. So it was me and one other person in this big empty ward, and then there was a receptionist sitting right outside that. And so the doctors would come in with masks and they would be mad, so it's just me by myself.

So all that went through my mind was, any receptionist, befriend them, befriend them, befriend them, learn their name, befriend them, get them to love you, so they say nice things about you. Try not to act like it. Stay on your game. And then I told myself— this is really funny— I went, leverage COVID, leverage COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID. So anything that comes up, just go, oh man, I've got a really bad headache. God, COVID is crushing me. Anything I could do just to get them to empathize with me.

Then they came in and said, we want to put you on X, Y, Z drugs. And by the way, I never took any mood-stabilizing drugs. They always had a very negative effect on me. And so when I'm on the phone with Linda, she sent me a code message, and I hope I don't get her in trouble or anyone else. She said, I just need you to be smart and safe right now, which she had said to me before in therapy. Smart and safe was, don't act like the 10-year-old boy. He's okay. Remember, you're okay. It's not your fault. So that was her reminder to don't let him show his face. So I do love telling this part of the story, because there's intrigue, but it was truly survival. And to your point, David, I'm going the whole time, how do they possibly think this is helpful? To confine me even more with my own thoughts.

I was given food on a regular basis, and then they would come in in the morning, the doctors or interns would interview me, young kids, dumb as fuck. They just— it was so textbook. "Oh, you look like you're bipolar too." And I'd go, oh, fucking A, you've got to get out. So they would come by, then the doctor would come by in the afternoon, and then they would hand me drugs.

So I'm very good at hiding gum, because when I was in high school, I used to hide gum way up in my mouth up here to chew gum. I would hide gum because I love chewing gum. So they'd give me the pills, I'd toss it back like this, put it in the corner of my mouth and go, ah, because I made you do that. And then I would go, can I take a shower now? And they'd say, sure. And so I'd go take a shower, spit it down the drain, and wait for it to work out.

I asked them, what are the side effects of the drugs? How am I supposed to feel from this? What should I be experiencing? That's all they had to tell me. They gave me a sheet, and I went, active— So I truly— I'd be like, [inaudible]. I would go like this, I go, I am getting a bad stomachache. And they'd say, what can we get you? And I would say little things like, can I just have some water, or can I maybe just get some potatoes? And they'd hand it to me, and then the doctor would say, all right, you've got to be a little stressed, you can't be so calm now. And so I was there for eight days.

No, eight days with them.

No, that was all eight days.

The ward was all eight days, yeah. So I do remember I got out of there. My daughter picked me up. Like, if you can imagine, it was just get the fuck out, get the fuck out. We got in the car. I went, oh my God. Because I'm still to this day, as I tell the story, fearful that they've got some record on me and I'm going to get handcuffed because I didn't take my pills.

But I remember Linda called me right away, and I could only talk to one person. So Linda was my conduit to tell everyone what's going on. And so I made sure to talk, because they were listening in. How are things going? You know, I'm learning a lot, Linda. You know, the things you taught. The doctor came by yesterday. He would say some things, and I'd go, I don't know if I agree with you on that, because I figured I had to share myself a little bit.

Okay. So why do I tell all that long story? I went out and went, never fucking again, ever. I'm going to go to Linda, but I'm not going to do this again. And holy shit, did the universe send you a message? Knock it off. So I go to Colorado, and I was telling your dad this story. I went, and dude, if you want your life to be different, you have done the same thing your whole fucking life. You're the only common denominator. If you want everything to change, you have to change today. You have to do everything differently, because you keep getting the same results.

It's 20 divided by 2. It's 10. It's 40 divided by 2. It's even numbers. You've got to be a 3 on the denominator. That's the only way you're going to get different outcomes. You're going to get odd numbers. You get something different. I told your dad it's the first time ever that the movie The Secret clicked, the universe clicked with me.

And ever since then, to really wrap this up, I'm in a beautiful relationship with my second wife. And I swear I say this to her almost every day: if at some point in your life you feel that our relationship is holding you back and you need to experience other things, I am your biggest fan. I will support you 1000%, at the risk of my own pain. Because I know what that pain looks like, but I also do not ever want to be an impediment to your life, your success. You have your journey here. I can't guarantee where I'm going to be if it's another man you want to be with or something else. But I will never be your impediment. I will applaud you leaving. And she says back to me, same.

And it is the most comforting feeling to know that it took me to be 55 years old to go through all of these things to realize I have zero control over everything except my reaction to circumstances. And I can now have this fulfilled life. It's not going to prevent death. It's not going to prevent people that I love being hurt. It's not going to prevent me from getting injured playing basketball. So it truly took me going into the hospital, going out to Colorado, and realizing, holy shit, the universe has been acting in my favor this whole time, and I never paid attention to it. How about that for answering your question about "take me back to the day you decided" in your life?

It happened. It happened twice. It truly happened twice. And I can honestly tell you, God, I hope it doesn't happen again where I get that upset. I can imagine terrible things happening, but I truly believe I have some reason to be here. I don't know what it is yet either. I'll figure it out when it's over, I guess.

Do I have to tell you this? My middle child had a bout with this and attempted suicide as well. I'm not bashful about talking about it, neither is she. I'm going to visit her this week. And I will tell you, I learned a lot from her personal struggles. I do remember the therapist there, when she was in an institution for a while, close to four weeks. They had said something to me— I want to just give you my answer. I can't remember the question, but I can give you my answer. And they started crying, because they said no parent had ever said this before.

I said, if I could rewind the clock and live a day over and over again, it's when you were 10 years old and we did XYZ. It was a memory that they remember really well. I said, if I could live that day over and over again, I would. It wouldn't progress my life anywhere, and so many other things I know have now come and gone. But I would live it over and over again just to have you. But if you don't want to be here, I get it. And I don't want you to stay if you don't want to be here, because I want you to be peaceful. And it would kill me to see you leave here, because someone is going to be impacted by you in a way that you don't understand yet. And if you can believe that that exists out there, then just stay one more day. But if you can't, call me and say, I really don't want to be here anymore, but I love you. I said, that's all I ask.

And the nurses are bawling. Everyone's getting upset. They have never heard someone— it came across as if I was giving her permission. Because I was. I was saying, if you're not happy here, I understand that better than anybody on the planet. I don't want you to leave. And I've come out on the other side of it. The pain that resides behind it is brutal. But I'm very comfortable talking about this topic. I do not have the answers. I will never profess to be an expert. I will only tell you what I experienced and how it's profoundly changed my life.

And so that's, it's really amazing to me, guys. You sent a Christmas letter and you asked for my home address, and it leads to us having this conversation. And God damn it, I really mean this: one fucking person who's struggling with shit right now goes, I'm in a bad place, male or female, I don't give a shit what you are, going, all right, if that goofball jackass can make it through, then so can I. And that's it. I don't know what else to tell you. I mean, if you want a full stop right there, we can. But that's your answer.

Yeah. And it's interesting that you say that, because I'm willing to bet if everyone was sitting around, they'd go, wait a minute, we love you. And what I learned through all of this stuff, it's been eye-opening for me, and I am for sure a work in progress. I even say to Kathy sometimes, hey, I'm reading this thing in a book, so I may sound scripted. So I'm going to try some things out, but I want to see how it lands.

What I actually do with my kids now, in particular, is I'll say these words. My instinct is always to help and solve. I'll say, do you need me to listen with the need to respond, or you just need me to be present right now? And I have found that that has transformed all of my relationships, because they instantly feel seen. Because what I'm saying to them is, dictate how you want me to pay attention to you.

I do it at work. Hell, there's a woman that said at work that I used to say the word "think" too often. So she would say to me, "Do you have any feelings at all?" I'd go, what the fuck is she talking about? She said, "Because everything with you is, well, I think we should do this. I think we should do that." I have practiced now even saying, how does that make everyone here feel? Do I feel good about this or not? And it changed the dynamic.

It's awkward for me to say it, but it gets to what I feel David likes, that choose your heart, right? And yeah, I felt no one saw me. Getting back to my sister calling me, I felt she saw me because she said, I feel something's not right. Can you just please, I want you near me. That's why, oh, okay, someone sees me. That's why— I'm not trying to do a promo for our stuff, but we're going to have you on our show. And it's about relationships. And you even mentioned that one of the biggest things you took from our conversation that Kathy and I have is being seen.

I've learned to be very comfortable with— I even, here, let me take it a step further. I told my sister, my mother, and others, when I went through all this, I went, here's the deal. I need you to understand how I want you to respond to me. When we start having conversations, I'm going to lead with, I need you to be present right now. Because I'm not going to put that on you to know to ask the question, but I'm going to lead with it. So I'll say to my sister or mom to this day, right now, I just need to be present. It's really the need to respond, and so I don't know how you feel about all that. It changes the dynamic of things.

I don't want you to go anywhere. I want you to hold that for one second. I'm going to tell you how fucking freaky this world is. Okay?

That's the universe right there. That's messed up. This is my second or third read-through.

I am so envious of you, and I really mean that. Not in a bad biblical way of envy and all that stuff. Maybe admirable is a better way. I admire you a lot right now, and also I'm a little envious. I'm so glad that you have these insights at your age and stage of life, because I'm grateful for where I am. This is a dialectic, right? I'm really grateful that I'm here at this place. I see things better than I used to. The natural habit of going, God, can you imagine if I had just had this clarity at 30? How much maybe I would have approached things differently? Who knows, right? We don't know, but I'm glad that you see this.

This is truly— I brought this as a third read-through just as a reminder. I went, all right, I've got to freshen up on some of these things that worked. This kind of stuff, all the things I'm talking about, to have someone at work— there's a woman who's been working for me for eight years. She's my favorite employee. Absolutely stunning. Super smart. Like any other person, lacks confidence in certain areas. And so I learned to leverage her strength. I had her do Clifton StrengthsFinder. We're going to do all these things. I had her do Love Languages, so I knew I'd talk to her. I said, I'm going to dive in all. I'm really going to get into this.

But there was one day when she was pissing me off. She doesn't like to fly, and I was the biggest dick in the world. This is eight, seven and a half years ago. If she ever listens to it, she'll nod. I think I told you this story. Maybe I did. Maybe I told you both. She was super late on a project. I asked what was going on at home. I could tell she just didn't want to do it. But it was one of those, we've got to do things we don't want to do sometimes.

So I called up our receptionist in New York and I said, you are to put— I'm going to send you airline tickets that I've paid for, and you're to print them out, pay for them with refundable stuff, and you're going to put them on her desk, because I've had it. And so she came in the next morning, and tickets were sitting there. Calls me because, what's this? "Your ass is in Chicago by Friday if you don't get this shit done." Because that's four days. I'm like, you have had two months to finish it. I've had it, or walk. I can't do this anymore. That's the old Jack, right? Crying tears, and I did this on the phone. Don't give a shit about your tears. Click.

This is just eight years ago, because that got me success. No one's going to tell me to do it. We still talk about that to this day, because she stayed. Oh, she got the work done, and then afterward she called me and said it was the meanest thing anyone's ever done to me. And she had the courage to say specifically what was mean about it. And I remember being so introspective, going, you can't do this anymore. To this day, we truly laugh, because she'll say, I can't believe the person you have become.

And so you asked me the question, how do you feel you can get someone to believe in change? I mean, you said energy, but how do you get someone to really believe that they can go from cantankerous ass to [inaudible] without losing themselves? Have an answer for that? Or is it just purely your why when you feel it's ready? Do you want to take it?

We were all 10-year-old little boys that wanted our mom to sit on a lap, and to say as we get older that that doesn't exist in us is bullshit. Look at you right now and how you're reacting to this. We— I don't— I can't. One of the things that Kathy loves about me is she knows that anyone fucks with her, I'm going to throw their face into a wall. It's that simple. I would crush someone if anyone did anything in my family. I don't care what happens to me. That doesn't mean I'm not going to cry, because I watch The Sound of Music, right?

Yeah. And the weird thing, I don't know how you feel about this right now, we talk about it often, Kathy and I, that I don't want to talk about white men's problems, because, you know, once again, right, everyone else has been marginalized, but we're struggling. I just feel that men need to talk to men more frequently and better. It's not a we're going to elevate one in spite of the other. We need to talk among ourselves better. We need to communicate. To me, that's the definition of being a better man. You can still be a provider. And all those other factors.

There's a guy named Scott Galloway. You probably listened to him. He talks about every man should be able to beat up everyone in a bar or be the fastest one out of there and know the difference, but never start the fight. Real men don't start fights. They solve them. And we just don't talk well together. I would love to be an instrument of change for that in some way.

That's why we joked that I am truly— I've got a very good friend who's trying to give me an opportunity to do a TED Talk about how an average guy like me bags a model. Now, the name is just "How Average." That's the next thing on my list. How I have a joke, "bags a model," right? [inaudible] attention, because that title is going to work. That's the marketer of me, right? That's important, right? But it's really about confidence and tenderness at the same time. I'm not saying that's what every female wants or a heteronormative relationship, but by and large that's what success is.

Even among us there's really good— one of my best friends, when I went back out with that woman that led me to the hospital, right, when we were together, he truly said, "What are you doing with her?" And he went, "I can't stand this. You are not the same person you are." And I had one of those, dude, you don't get it, sorting things out, right? And he truly leaned in and went, "I'm worried about you, because she messes you up." And it— but there's a first time he's like, I care about you, right? I felt uncomfortable. I don't know. Handle it. You have an advantage now, young man. Be better passengers.

You went to Florida, I remember. Scottsdale out here, up in Wisconsin.

Yeah, I'm with you. I get it. I had it too. I really did. I'll tell you, John, truly the only thing I miss is I wish I had another dude that was going through divorce, because the only thing that was the hard part for me, I truly only had one friend that went through a divorce, but he had gone through a divorce 25 years earlier, and it was a two-year marriage. It was really fast. It was in his twenties. And you and I both had lengthy marriages. But yes, the amount of people that came to our sides...

People don't realize, when you are divorced, let me see if this resonates with you, it's no longer the end of the marriage. This is how I view it, at least. It's no longer the marriage is over. It's the future is gone. You don't have someone to retire with, someone to go to the movies with, someone to... So what you really are lamenting is you are suddenly in the matrix and you're sitting in a blank room going, now what? And it's a grossly empty feeling. So, yeah. Anyway, I'm glad you had a ton of friends and family around you like that, or whatever you had to help you.

Yeah. I mean, it's you after a turning point. You come out on the other side. Very cool. I love it.

I will tell you, having watched your podcast, this was the piece I didn't want to do. Believe it or not, I can do it. I just, I went, I don't want to.

I'm literally looking at all of the list of things here that I've said to people over time. I'm going to go here because I think it had the biggest impact on my kids, I believe. My daughter so much so, my oldest, that she got— it was her first tattoo, which, you know, that was a "what are you doing, kid," and then of course now I have multiple. But she got the word C-R-O-I-R-E, which is French for "belief," because I used to always tell them, and I have to remind myself of it, that you can move mountains with whatever you believe. It's truly possible. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy. It doesn't mean you won't have challenges, but belief is everything. It is truly my soul.

And when I went through all that, I just said, I believe I'm going to have a better life, and that was that period. And I had to accept all the potholes that I'd run through, and enjoy and embrace and give thanks to all the smooth roads and sunshiny days and warm weather and all that stuff. But if I believe shit's going to happen, shit's going to happen. I'm going to get exactly what I believe. And so if anyone's out there trying to wonder what or if, just believe. Just believe. And by the way, if you believe bad things, you're going to get bad things. So I know that it had a big impact on my kids, and they're my focus. And so belief, it's truly everything.

Oh, that's the nicest thing. [inaudible], man. Well, it means a lot to me. I'm truly so honored. I really am. Your dad was one of the first guys that believed in me. I don't even remember how we met, but I know I enjoyed working with you and your team. You guys are really doing something well here. I really mean it. I can't wait to see the next guests you have, because they're probably a lot more insightful than me, probably.

I doubt it. But I would like you to do more tactical stuff, or just call me, because I really did appreciate that, I think.

You guys are amazing. Please keep up the good work. However I can promote this in any way for you— not this particular podcast, I mean anything. I believe in what you're doing. If you want more guests, I know a ton of people that you'd love to meet. So however I can propagate this for you, I really mean it.

Sounds good. You guys rock.